Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 So organic is it's a program that requires annual inspections. Not a lot of people know that, and it also requires companies to submit labels for approval. So you're submitting your product and your formula and your label for approval to be able to use that seal, that organic USDA seal on your package. So it's quite complex and it's quite detailed, but it's a really good program. And the good news is you can trust that label because it goes through scrutiny at every stage of the process.
Speaker 2 00:00:29 Welcome to another episode of GMO. Watch on your host Emily journey. I'm curious about GMOs and why I choose to eat organic and non GMO foods. My guests and I are going to break down the hype from the facts around GMOs in our food, so that you can come to your own conclusions about what you want to eat.
Speaker 2 00:00:53 I find food labels, confusing. There are so many food labels and I don't know which ones to trust and what's behind those food labels. And so the most common ones that I see are organic, and that's probably the one that I trust the most, but there's also, non-GMO certified gluten free. That's kind of an obvious one that I can understand, but I have questions. And so on today's episode of GMO watch, I have a conversation with Alicia Bach. Alicia has been in the food industry for over 30 years. She's an expert on food regulations, labeling and nutrition at her company, Agra systems that are national. She focuses on assisting companies to get certified organic so they can use that organic label on their packaging and be accountable to their consumers. Tell me more about your business Agra systems international. What is your area of expertise? How do you help people?
Speaker 0 00:01:56 So this particular consulting group actually was founded in 1975. So it's been out there for awhile. My predecessor actually started the business because he was very passionate about organic food and his name was Tom Harding. And he developed this methodology where he was helping to create the organic food law back in the day before it became national. Because prior to that, every state had their own organic standards. It was a little confusing when Vermont would say, one thing was organic and California would say something else was organic and no one really knew what it meant. So a bunch of people got together back in the late eighties, early nineties, food industry professionals, farmers, scientists, government, people, and they all basically came together and came up with this organic foods production act of 1990. It was the first attempt to make a national law out of organic labeling so that you could have one label across the country and be consistent. It took quite a bit of time for that production act to be approved through Congress. It was a food labeling law, so it took forever to get through regulations. But the bottom line was, it became a regulation under USDA and it is now a national law. And it's the only law and regulation that covers food from farm to table, from growing organically to livestock production, to farming food processing, packaging, retail, all the way to consumer. So it's the only law of its kind.
Speaker 2 00:03:17 So that's interesting. Yeah. So that was, yeah, I was pretty young in the seventies. So what your company does is you help small businesses, big businesses, all sizes, is that right?
Speaker 0 00:03:28 So it started as kind of a way for the consulting group to help farmers mainly to convert organically. So when I purchased the business back in 2010, my expertise and my background is in food processing. So I deal with a lot of food production, bigger companies. So we help farmers. And we also help greenhouses. We help food processors, small businesses, medium or large businesses, quite honestly, anyone who wants to go to certify their products, organic, we can help. We lay out a plan based on what they're currently doing. And then we figured out how to make it easy for them to apply all the organic regulations to their product, which includes formulas, supplier ingredients, labeling the whole gamut. So there's a lot of detail that goes into organic production and just not to bore you too much, but I'll get it over with now. So organic is, it's a program that requires annual inspections. Not a lot of people know that. And it also requires companies to submit labels for approval. You're submitting your product and your formula and your label for approval to be able to use that seal, that organic USDA seal on your package. So it's quite complex and it's quite detailed, but it's a really good program. And the good news is you can trust that label because it goes through scrutiny at every stage of the process.
Speaker 2 00:04:39 Okay. So if I'm a business and I'm creating granola bars for examples, and I'm using all organic ingredients and it's offsite, it's not, I'm not making them in my house, but I have a production area where I can make the granola bars and packaging and ship them out to my people who ordered them. I've got great social media and my sales are through the roof. I think, you know, these are all organic ingredients. Can I just put, Hey, these are organic on my packaging or do I really have to go through a process to get a special label for that?
Speaker 0 00:05:11 Yeah. So the organic regulations are definitely geared towards people other than the cottage food industry. So what you're talking about is if you make this product in your kitchen and you sell it at farmer's markets, they have a cap on income. If you make less than $5,000 a year in income for organic, you can avoid that organic certification
Speaker 2 00:05:29 Fee. And I can still put organic on my label.
Speaker 0 00:05:32 It's a little gray, to be honest with you, this is the part that's the most confusing for people, because if I go to a farmer's market and I say, Hey, is your product really organic? They say, well, yeah, we use all organic ingredients, but we're not certified. I would steer away from that personally. But I also understand that some small cottage industry, mom and pops don't have the money or the footprint. So that's not my area of expertise.
Speaker 2 00:05:55 So unless I really want that brownie at the farmer's market and don't care that much. So cottage industries, you know, there's a cap and that's based upon revenue. Wow. I didn't know that
Speaker 0 00:06:08 You have to sell a very small amount of product to avoid being
Speaker 2 00:06:12 Certified. Not
Speaker 0 00:06:13 Much. Yeah. So realistically denture question, you're not allowed to call the product organic, unless it's certified organic. Got it. And there's different levels of labeling for that. And I know this is technically a labeling podcast, but organic definitely defines claims. So they don't mind the word organic on your package. You have to meet a certain threshold. 95% of your ingredients in that product have to be organic certified. That's the only way you can call it organic. And you can put the seal on the package, anything less than that, between 70% and 95%, you can't use the seal. It can't say organic on it, but it can say made with organic ingredients. And that's also certified. So those two claims require you to do annual inspections, submit paperwork, the whole thing. Um, anything less than 70% organic, you're allowed to put the ingredients in the ingredient line, but you can't call the product organic. Okay. I've
Speaker 2 00:07:06 Seen them. All you can do
Speaker 0 00:07:07 Is say, Hey, this granola bar has organic cane, sugar, organic wheat or whatever. And then
Speaker 2 00:07:14 Yeah, I've seen that where, you know, it's not all the ingredients are organic, but they'll definitely put in that this particular ingredient is organic. So you help people get to overcome that hurdle, get the paperwork correct. And wherever their weaknesses are, you point them out. You need to get your ducks in a row, make sure you're doing this right. And your resource in that way.
Speaker 0 00:07:36 Right? And then to add an extra step with that, we customize it based on what people are looking for. But where I can help is to get the client paired up with a certifier because there's multiple certifiers across the country that are accredited to the same standard. So if you're in California, you might want to use California certified organic as a certifier. If you're on the east coast, you might want to use Vermont certifiers or whoever. So there's different options, but they all meet the same law. So I can help clients get paired up with a certifier. I can help them fill out the application paperwork, and then I can help be their liaison or their advocate during the process because this process can take months. This is not a quick thing.
Speaker 2 00:08:14 I have some packages here on my desk. You know, I went down to the kitchen. I grabbed a few things. So here I have a box of Kashi cereal, dark cocoa karma. I love it. By the way, this is great with some chocolate almond milk. So it says certified transitional biscuits is what, how they're describing the product. And I was like, what? And then I turned it to the back, right? And it says in big, bold letters, this cereal is not organic. And I'm like, what? You're not supposed to say that. And then they, you know, they have this great big photo of the farmer on the back. And you know, he looks like a good guy. I want to buy food from him. And they're describing this whole thing called transitional certified. What is that about?
Speaker 0 00:09:02 The hardest part about getting organic certified? If you're a farmer, is that you have to wait three years in order to ensure that your land hasn't had prohibited chemicals applied, meaning fertilizers and pesticides. So if I want to be a farmer and I want to start growing organic grain, I have to prove that that land has been dormant or not treated for the last three years. So if I want to be certified organic during that time, I can't be. But if I'm doing all the work and I'm putting in all the right ingredients and I'm doing the right things, chances are, I'm going to be losing a little bit of money during this process because I can't call my product organic and get the price differential back until I can be certified. So there's a three-year window where they're not making any money. They're not making organic money.
Speaker 2 00:09:46 If that makes sense, they're spending money to become organic. They're
Speaker 0 00:09:49 Spending a lot of money and that's the number one hurdle. That's why farmers don't want to convert and we need more organic crop land in this country. We do, we need a lot more Kashi was a pioneer with a certifier to try to come up with a way to get a price premium, for lack of a better term, to help these farmers out during this three-year period. And they call it transitional to organic. They know by law, they can't call the product organic because it's not certified yet, but they're trying to get people to understand that they're in the process of getting organic certified. So that's what that means. I bought it. Hey, if you like the taste, that's all that matters. And you're supporting farmers that are trying to be certified. So that's a good thing. In my opinion,
Speaker 2 00:10:29 I agree. This is, I think brilliant that they just put this right up front.
Speaker 0 00:10:34 And as you can see, it's a tricky subject because they're not allowed to call it organic. So they have to be very careful and say, this is not organic.
Speaker 2 00:10:41 So there's a label here it's green and white. And it says transitional certified. Is that a real type of certification? Is that really a required label for transitional type product?
Speaker 0 00:10:55 I would say that it's in a testing phase. So this is kind of a project that they're piloting. It's not technically an actual third party claim. I'm going to say it's in the gray area compared to some other things that I've seen. But yes, it's a good thing that they're actually trying to explain what they're doing.
Speaker 2 00:11:11 I have another package here.
Speaker 0 00:11:13 So let me tell you while you're doing that, let me tell you a little bit really briefly about labeling there's three types of agencies that manage food labels, which you may not know. So FDA food drug administration manages non-meat products, Kashi as an example, anything that's non-meat serials and all that stuff. And for whatever reason, FDA always also manages seafood. USDA manages meat products. So you would think fish would be with USDA, but it's not. So that's two different jurisdictions, two different labeling laws. That's how you figure that out. Organic is technically managed by USDA, but it's through a different division than the meat side.
Speaker 2 00:11:52 That sounds crazy me
Speaker 0 00:11:53 Not to confuse you, but yes, it's very confusing. So if I'm a company that makes meat and non-meat products in the same facility. So as an example, let's say pizza, I'm making crust for pizza, which is a dope product in a bakery that's connected to a plant that also makes the meat, toppings, pepperoni, sausage, and things like that. I have to have a place on one side that's FDA. I have another plant on the side with the meat products. That's actually USDA. So they're two different inspection services. USDA goes in much more often. FDA's in less often. So you want to talk about processing food. It's kind of a confusing thing.
Speaker 2 00:12:28 There's a lot of regulation
Speaker 0 00:12:30 There is. And then organic is the only other regulation of food. Besides that. Anything else besides those three, you're talking about label claims. non-GMO project is a claim. That's a third-party certifier, but it's not a regulation. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:12:45 That brings me to this package. I've got my box of Lara bars, another product
Speaker 0 00:12:50 That I love. I see the non-GMO GMO in the corner.
Speaker 2 00:12:53 I do not see anywhere on this package where it says it's organic, but they have some text here that says non GMO gluten-free vegan. Dairy-free soy-free so those are all claims, right? Well, there's the nutrition facts label, man. I remember when that became a thing,
Speaker 0 00:13:13 Right? So FDA manages nutritional facts. FDA also manages any of those claims on the front.
Speaker 2 00:13:20 Just the basic words. If I say it's gluten-free, then it has to be
Speaker 0 00:13:24 Right. But the difference is that FDA doesn't require labels to be approved. Whereas USDA meat products and organic do require approval. So you have to submit labels for approval. FDA does not. It's up to the company to manage it internally. There's no extra approval. Now with non GMO project verified, there is, there is a third-party that requires companies. It's a voluntary program, but those companies use that seal to show that they've done all the work to prove that there's no GMOs in that product. Organic also is not GMO
Speaker 2 00:13:55 Automatically
Speaker 0 00:13:56 Has to be it's part of the law. So organic does not allow GMO.
Speaker 2 00:13:59 So if it's organic, it really doesn't matter if it has this non GMO verified label because organic automatically non-GMO right.
Speaker 0 00:14:10 I have some clients who actually choose to use both certifications because they originally were concerned that consumers didn't understand that organic is non-GMO.
Speaker 2 00:14:19 Well, I would be one of those people,
Speaker 0 00:14:21 Organic probably could do a better job of explaining what organic means because organic is non-GMO. It's also got regulations around prohibited ingredients. You can't use a lot of pesticides. You can't use a lot of artificial ingredients. There's a whole host of things that organic is besides just non-GMO. So if you're looking for non GMO, you can either look for the USDA organic seal, or you can look for the non-GMO, but both of those programs are company voluntary programs they're not required. So Lara bar has to go to non GMO project verified and say, we're going to spend money to have you help us verify that all of our ingredients are non GMO. And we're going to in turn be able to use that seal on our package. And that also requires I think a desk review. I'm not sure if it actually requires an in-person inspection.
Speaker 2 00:15:06 Does non-GMO project have, where does their accountability come from? Do they have any requirements to the USDA or the FDA?
Speaker 0 00:15:17 No, the United States does not have a GMO policy from the standpoint that it's not required to tell people that GMOs are in their packages. So non-GMO project was basically designed and created as a need because consumers wanted to know whether GMO's were in their products and they had no way of knowing that. So, no, it's not a requirement. In fact, even to this day, with the most recent FDA rule, they have guidance on labeling GMOs on your package, but most companies choose not to. So this is what I would call a claim based on consumer need or demand versus a government requirement.
Speaker 2 00:15:55 I received an email from a professor at Cornell and she was responding to something she read on my website, GMO watch. And basically what she was saying was the GMO project verified label is nothing but a marketing tool.
Speaker 0 00:16:10 Okay. But I'll spin that around on you because I'm a full believer in, I'm not, anti-science just so you know, my background is in the food industry and I have a science background. I'm not against you most necessarily. I agree that they're not an organic and that's by law, but I'm a big believer in consumer choice. So if I want to buy something as a consumer and I want to know if there's GMOs in it, I need to know how to find them. I need to know what to look for. And right now, the only thing I know is that when I look at the FDA website and it says, what GMO crops are grown and sold in the U S am I eating foods that come from GMOs? Chances are yes, because they're not labeled. So if you want to know which products are currently GMO sourced, you can guarantee soy corn, sugar, beets, cotton, obviously not going to eat cotton potatoes, papayas, squash, canola, apples.
Speaker 0 00:17:02 And you know, unfortunately they just approved GMO salmon, which I'm not really thrilled about. And they did this all based on what they thought was science. So there's a reason that they genetically modify something. And either it's going to grow better without pesticides, supposedly, or it's going to grow faster or whatever the issue with GMOs for a lot of people is they don't trust it because it's not normal. It's not natural. Or there are things that are going to happen down the road that we just didn't anticipate. I don't know if that's true because this stuff has been out there for years and years and years. And other than the fact that you have super weeds and some other things that are happening as an unintended consequence of pesticide spraying, the jury is still out. I mean, if you talk about countries that have banned GMOs, you're talking about the European union, you're talking about they're 64 countries that ban GMOs right now, the us isn't one of them. So for a company in the U S to export to the EU, they have to be non-GMO, they're not allowed to use them. I guess the answer is it's tricky. But to answer your original question in the comment from Cornell, it is a marketing tool. So as organic technically, so is vegan. And gluten-free, it's a marketing tool because you want consumers to know what's in your product, but it's the only tool out there because there's no requirement for the U S companies to label or Deimos
Speaker 2 00:18:15 Right. And so some consumers have made the decision that they don't want GMOs. They're afraid of GMOs. They don't
Speaker 0 00:18:25 Trust it, or they don't
Speaker 2 00:18:26 Understand it. And whether or not that's founded in truth and science and may or may not be the case. Right. But the fact is that people make their own decisions and they're empowered to make their own decisions when there's a label that they can look at. And when they know what's behind that label, I also saw a non GMO label on my chocolate chips from the grocery store
Speaker 0 00:18:49 To say that you're buying healthy food.
Speaker 2 00:18:51 Yeah. Chocolate's healthy. That non-GMO label was kind of this orange flower. And it was not this non-GMO project certified. They're just saying non-GMO. So you can still say you're, non-GMO slap that label on a package without going through a certification process. Is that right?
Speaker 0 00:19:12 Technically that's true for non-GMO because there's no regulation around GMOs. However, you're still up against the FDA requirements for truth and labeling. So if FDA was getting complaints, they could investigate, they could provide fines. I mean, FDA technically is still in charge of non-meat food labeling. They just don't have a requirement for you to submit labels for approval.
Speaker 2 00:19:36 But that truth in labeling law, it covers a lot of things.
Speaker 0 00:19:41 It covers a lot of things. It covers any claims on your package. So as an example, if I'm a good company and I'm going to tell you that I'm making a product that's vegan or gluten-free, or even non-GMO, I better back it up and I better make sure that it's right. The question is, if it's not a regulated claim, how do you know, how do you know that they're doing it right? Maybe they're only using non GMO ingredients, but they're not caring about shared space on a line. I get a little leery when I see a bunch of claims on a product, maybe not food related, but like a supplement where they say, Hey, claim, this can make you much healthier. This can cure diseases. This can do all this stuff. And then they put this tiny little claim on the bottom that says these claims have not been verified by FDA. That's the only regulatory language on that packages, that claim that says these have not been verified by the FDA. The FDA makes them put that on there.
Speaker 2 00:20:31 Is that like saying just kidding.
Speaker 0 00:20:34 That's like saying, uh, yeah, well we're doing our best, but good
Speaker 2 00:20:37 Luck. So there's sounds like there's work to be done. So
Speaker 0 00:20:40 It's not a wild, wild west thing. I'm not trying to make it sound like that because most companies are trying to do the right thing. I just think that when you have many claims on a package, it's confusing for a consumer. So as an example, if I'm making a product that's organic certified and I'm using that seal and I'm making a product that says non GMO verified, and there's a using the seal, I can feel pretty good about the fact that that company has made it a point to spend money, to put their money where their mouth is. And they're actually doing something with a third party to verify that they're doing it right. But if you're going to go around and say, Hey, you know, my product is the best. And it's absent of everything, no dairy, no soy, no vegan, whatever. But the reason that consumers are looking for that is because they just want to know that something's actually more natural or more simple. I guess the biggest trend right now in consumer labeling is either the absence of bad things or the simple ingredients that you can pronounce.
Speaker 2 00:21:31 But part of that also, when you say something doesn't have something it's also implying that it's bad,
Speaker 0 00:21:37 Right? It's implying that whatever, that thing that's not in your package is a bad thing. Give
Speaker 2 00:21:42 Me all the gluten, I love the gluten.
Speaker 0 00:21:44 You don't have that whole gluten-free thing get started right now. I don't. So back in the day, it was actually quite important for people who had celiac disease because they couldn't digest gluten. It was officially like a medical issue for them to the point where it could actually be very health threatening. But then for some reason it became this huge fab because people said, oh, gluten is bad because it makes me feel whatever way. And then suddenly it became this trendy thing, which in my opinion, never should have become a trendy thing.
Speaker 2 00:22:12 Maybe it's not harmful to be gluten-free right. And some people like swear by it
Speaker 0 00:22:17 Tied in with the whole low carb thing.
Speaker 2 00:22:19 I would like to know. Are there questions that consumers are not asking that you feel like that are important questions to ask, or even people that are businesses that are considering going organic? Are there any questions that come up, you know, as a part of your conversations with people, but that aren't not enough people are asking, but they should be.
Speaker 0 00:22:41 I'm just going to preface everything by saying that. I think there's still a lot of confusion out there with consumers because there's a lot of label claim proliferations that happen? But as a consumer, I get confused sometimes with all these extra claims and I am fully in proponent of kind of a new, I guess you would call it a consumer education campaign from only organic. They never really explained what organic was. So there's a lot of consumer confusion around it. That's one thing that I think is going to help is that they're trying to create like an, an education campaign on what organic means above and beyond non GMO, because it's so much more than that. That's number one, because then consumers will know organic is an all-encompassing thing. That's much more than just GMOs. What I get confused about sometimes is when you have all these claims on eggs, as an example, organic eggs cage-free and then the whole thing around like meat, grass fed versus
Speaker 2 00:23:37 Is grass fed organic
Speaker 0 00:23:39 Well, organic requires access to land and pasture, but there's a difference between free and free range. So there's just too many claims out there. That's my number one takeaway on this. It's very confusing and not every claim requires diligence or, or investigation or verification. It's about consumer choice. You have one thing in particular that you're looking for. And if you can't find it and you have a product that you really like, and you want it to be a certain way, you go back to the company and say, Hey, I really want my Oreos organic, or I really want my Mac and cheese gluten-free or whatever it is. Like consumers have the power to be able to go back to those companies and say, Hey, we don't like what you're doing with this. There's too many artificial colors in this. That's a good example of one thing that
Speaker 2 00:24:21 Happened. I'm so glad you said that
Speaker 0 00:24:23 You have the power with your pocket book.
Speaker 2 00:24:25 The thing that I am spending money on almost every single day is food. I'm in the grocery store, I'm in the drive-thru dining out, right. I'm spending my money. And that is like where we have the most as consumers have the most direct power is what we spend our money on. And that's why there's all those consumer hotlines. And like, I can easily email any of these food makers and they will reply.
Speaker 0 00:24:51 They do. They have a whole group of people that do nothing but reply
Speaker 2 00:24:54 Care. They actually want to hear from me and eating is such a personal thing. And it has one of the largest impacts on my life for the rest of my life. Food is one place where we have so much power. And if we want to see change in labeling or consolidation or clarification, we just need to reach out to the companies where we want to see changes and support products that we like, and that are, you know, being transparent about what's what's in their food.
Speaker 0 00:25:23 Yeah. And I think the key thing for me that makes me hopeful is that since the beginning, I mean, organic food is now a $50 billion industry in this country and it's over 65 billion worldwide. It's a good story. It's basically a promising story that there's more farmers that are certified in this country than there ever have been before. Transitioning land organically means that you're actually helping the planet. The soil, the land, the environment, organic soil is, is much better at retaining water during drought. There's just so many studies that they've done now between organic and conventional agriculture side by side, the Rodale Institute in Pennsylvania has done a 30 plus year study on this. It's just amazing to me that there's so much potential for organic agriculture to help mitigate climate change. You know, a lot of people will say, well, it's not going to be enough to feed the world organically. My point is, well, why can't we just have more organic in the mix? You know, it's just like energy. You don't want to have all one type of energy. You don't want to have only one type of food either.
Speaker 2 00:26:21 So that's not threatening to have organic. No, it's not
Speaker 0 00:26:24 Threatening. And quite honestly, if I can buy organic produce and fruit and things and know that I'm having less pesticides on them and I'm doing better for the soil and the VR in the environment, that's where I'm gonna spend my money. It's just consumer choice for me.
Speaker 2 00:26:36 You've been terrific. Yay. This
Speaker 0 00:26:38 Is fun.
Speaker 2 00:26:40 So yeah, you've been great. Thank you for being on the show.
Speaker 0 00:26:43 Thank you for having me, Emily. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 00:26:48 Thank you for listening to this episode of GMO watch. If you love the episode, head over to apple podcasts and leave us a rating and a review. This helps other listeners know what you think about our show and they'll share GMO watch with more people like you as reviews come in, I'll read them and give you a shout out. So make sure you add your Instagram handle to your review. I'll see you next week.
